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Crimson DESTR0YA
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Posts: 1888

I still think I'd be Ghost/Dark.

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March 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I wonder. Maybe we should use the types in our Safari? That would make me Poison, which I wouldn't mind being.

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March 8, 2014 at 2:45 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
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Posts: 1888

I'm willing to be Dragon, but I demand a cape.

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March 8, 2014 at 3:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

Okay yeah this is still the raddest idea and it really needs to happen. The Safari is an interesting idea, that would make me Ghost. Though to be honest I would really like it if we could all pick whichever type we most prefer, I'd love to make a Water team. It's probably my favorite type, and it would give me an excuse to train up and use some of my prizes from shiny fishing.


I really want to see this happen, but there's also the problem that we just don't have that many people that will join in. If we don't have enough people for all four elites + Champion and Challenger, we could probably do both options? Have those that are really interested have two teams each, one based on Safari and one based on favorite type. And possibly even another team that would serve as either a challenger team and/or as a champion team.


Whatever we decide, absolutely count me on board. 

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March 9, 2014 at 4:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

Augh, sorry for the double post but I thought of a couple more things to add. 

First of all, wanted to mention I'd be glad to loan out or help breed Pokemon for anyone's team. I don't think anyone should feel like they don't have the time to get a team together for this, I'm sure we'd all be more than glad to help out!!

Secondly, should Elite 4 members be required to strictly stay with their type, or possibly be allowed at least one Pokemon that is a different type? It's not too unusual for E4 in the game to branch out a bit, and it might help make the teams a little more practical. One possible restriction here could be that said different Pokemon needs at least one attack with the fitting type (ie, if I was Ice, I could have a Gyarados with Ice Fang), or we could just leave it at one Pokemon being whatever the E4 member wanted with no restrictions. Thoughts?

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March 9, 2014 at 4:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Wow you've got some great suggestions there. I never considered having one person serve as more than one E4 member, but considering our size problem I think that'd be a great way to combat it. We have the three of us, and I really want Diddy to be a part of this too, since this was originally his idea. I'll try to get in touch with him soon.


I too am a proponent of picking our own types. Mostly because, while I have an awesome Friend Safari type in Dragon, I really want to be Ghost. This is the kind of event I see us (eventually) running multiple times, with different people in different roles each time, and the Friend Safari idea is one I would like to do another time, but for this first run I'd really like to have free choice.


I also have to say I support the Wild Card idea. It just makes things more interesting, as long as the E4 members don't abuse the rule to stick a random Chomp or Mence in there just to be difficult (which I don't see any of us doing). For instance, if I were to be Ghost, I'd probably slot an Umbreon in as Wild Card. Good walling synergy with the Ghosts, in fitting with the general theme of the team, but not strong enough to truly break it. I understand the opposing view too, and if Tam and I are the only two who like the idea I'd be fine without implementing it.


And of course, I'm willing to help with raising the needed Pokes as well.

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March 9, 2014 at 6:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I certainly wouldn't need help breeding. I'm very very good at it and I find it quite enjoyable.


But one person serving more than one role is a very smart idea. It fixes our lack of members problem easily! I don't see what is wrong with adding in Wildcards, it will especially help those poor souls stuck with a type that has many of the same type combos (such as Ice and Rock). My question is, can we allow Pseudo-legendaries and small-time Legends like the Birds, Dogs, Regi's, ect.? Like the aformentioned Ice type, an Articuno would really help make the challenge more.. challenging. But I can also see how that has room for abuse since a Rock E4 member could pack T-tar and Regirock on a team and you guys know how that goes.

(Talking about this makes me think how there should totally be a Champion who is packing like really tough Legends and has a Big Legend as their final. Can you image how cool it would be to fight through an Entei, Raikou, and Suicune to then see a Ho-oh appear? He'd be like the Johto master or something)

Either way, I'm down for getting this started as soon as we get seom rules going. I'm perfectly happy taking multiple types too, I love too many Pokemon and have too many team ideas to commit to just one.

Just continuing from my stream of thoughts here, but is there a place for alternate battle strategies too? I don't want to over-complicate things by any means! But I'm pretty mean at triples. My triple team is almost a mono-type too so double-win!

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March 9, 2014 at 7:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Again, we'd have to use discretion to avoid such situations as Tar and Regirock. But the three of us have an incredible amount of knowledge and experience in battling and teambuilding between us, and I'm sure we can collaborate and avoid such situations. So, obviously within reason, I support the use of minor Legends.


The idea of the region master thing is a great one too, perhaps in the future we could split up the Champion and the entire E4 into regions, or perhaps have each member represent a region, or perhaps a specific game's National Pokédex. I don't want to do that this first time, but in the future I really like that idea.

As for alternate battle strategies, I would be down for that, though I never even learned how to play doubles well, let alone triples. It's not a thing I'd be against trying though!


Some preliminary rule suggestions I have are:

-Megas allowed for Challenger and perhaps Champion, not for E4

-Item clause for E4 and Champion, Challenger not restricted (barring Hax Items... Or not?)

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March 9, 2014 at 7:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I agree about the Megas. I'd prefer the challenger still not have hax and we keep a sleep cause or something. I still want this to be fun after all.

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Ask me about my waifus

"I'm happy to report that my inner child is still ageless". James Broughton

March 9, 2014 at 7:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Herp derp, sleep clause. It's such a given at this point I guess I forgot all about it. Also, species clause? A lot of in-game E4 members had multiples of the same Poke but I feel like that was mostly due to a lack of diversity within certain types... We should probably encourage as much diversity as possible.


Anything else? Or is the difficulty level for the challenger good here?

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March 9, 2014 at 8:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Species clause should be fine. We have a lot of Pokemon to choose from now!

If we wanted to better mimic the games then only the Challenger should switch Pokemon (unless the E4 member is in an impossible situation). Also the moves SR, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes would be banned for all but the challenger. not that the challenger would really want to use those anyway since the member themselves wouldn't switch nearly enough for that to be effective.

Uhh, I think the only other thing I can think of would be that the E4 keeps their types hidden from the challenger so they can't just stack their team. The E4 members themselves should discuss ahead of time what they want to use though so we don't end up with the same type.


It also might be fun to have a topic for this that the E4 can post from. Maybe make their small speech to the challenger and describe ahead of the battle what the surrounding area looks like.

Also if we wanted to get started earlier and make re-watching the battles easier we could just use Pokemon Showdown rather than train everything outselves. It might be simpler since, at least the way I understand it, we'd all be changing around the roles of Challenger, Champion, and E4 member every successful challenge.

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Ask me about my waifus

"I'm happy to report that my inner child is still ageless". James Broughton

March 9, 2014 at 9:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

The switching thing and lack of hazards I see as more of a limitation of the AI rather than really being tradition, I don't think we should duplicate that. I'm also against Showdown as a matter of principle, I'd rather keep this on the actual cartridges. I like giving the E4 members a chance to give a speech and design their own rooms though, I like that a lot.


X is confirmed not to be a participant in this nor our upcoming Battle Night. Due to his job, he's probably not going to be posting here at all for another few months. He will return, but we're sadly entering a stretch without him.

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March 9, 2014 at 9:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

B "Diddy" M
Member
Posts: 295

I think all of the rules mentioned here are great. I'm curious as to whether or not the challenger is locked into 6 pokemon for the entire challenge and if he/she will know the types before hand. On one side, only having 6 pokemon is traditional as it gets in the E4 challenge, but when you're going against 5 competitive teams of various types, it will be a lot more difficult to make a team. I mean, the E4 in the games are not nearly as difficult as one of you acting as an E4 member would be. On the other side, having the challenger have 5 different teams makes it more of a "battle people with specfic types" thing as opposed to an E4 challenge.

My suggestion would be for the challenger to go in with knowledge of one of the two types (for example, knowing the ghost part of a ghost/dark E4 member) and maybe allowing the team to made up of 8-10 pokemon the challenger can switch around with before a battle. This leaves the E4 members with some flexibility and strats to make while also giving the challenger a few counterplay options. 

I have one more idea that isn't exactly viable but I thought I would share anyway. I really like the idea of this and want it to be challenging and competitive, but I personally want to avoid legendaries and pseudo-legends at all costs. I know we don't have a tier system, but I would almost go as far to say as nothing that would be considered overpowered (i.e. Salamence). I would much prefer to see the E4 members bringing out pokemon like Dugtrio, Lapras, or Dragonite as opposed to them having Excadrill, Salamence, etc. The idea is still fuzzy in my head, but I guess I'm trying to say is I would like there to be room for "fun" pokemon in the mix as opposed to what is 100% competitive. 

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March 9, 2014 at 9:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

I much prefer locking the challenger into one team of six; that's what separates it from just being a series of random monotype battles. I'd like to see the challenger knowing beforehand which types the E4 have chosen, but not which order they'll be fought in. Maybe that can be determined randomly at the time of the event.


In order to compensate for that though, it would make sense to give the challenger an advantage in which Pokémon he/she can bring. Therefore, what if we made our own tiers, just for this event? By that, I imagine this: Ubers, Semi-Ubers, and Everything Else. Ubers are barred from the whole competition (Mewtwo, Lugia, etc.), Semi-Ubers are banned for all but the challenger and perhaps champion (here's for things like Salamence and the Latis; basically high OUs), and Everything Else is just as it suggests. That way, we can still have Legendaries in the spirit that CJ mentioned, like Regice and Articuno for an Ice Leader, but also maintaining the sense of balance and promoting the lesser-used Pokes like Diddy suggested.

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March 9, 2014 at 9:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

That sounds good to me. So really all that is left to do is debate about what is in what tier lol. I still say not knowing the types of the E4 would be more fun than knowing, but I won't withold the info to a challenger. I'd like to be in the dark when I take the role of challenger though.

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March 9, 2014 at 10:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Dudes I'm so stoked about this now. I've been running over Serebii's list of types since yesterday trying to think about what types I want to represent and which to choose from.

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Ask me about my waifus

"I'm happy to report that my inner child is still ageless". James Broughton

March 10, 2014 at 9:32 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

Aw man me and Nick are super pumped for it, too!! We were talking about it earlier and came to the idea that maybe two of us should act as the E4 with two teams each, while one person is the challenger and someone else is the champion. Between me, Nick, CJ, and Diddy, I think that should work out nicely? What does everyone think?


We've also got to decide who wants to be what for the first go! I'm sure we'll do this several times so everyone can have a chance to be the challenger, but who wants to start us off first and who wants to be the champ?  I think for the first round I'd prefer to be an E4 member, personally, if that's alright!


As far as which should be considered Ubers and Semi-Ubers, I trust everyone here to be pretty fair on that! Still, it'll be nice to have a list in case of a few disputed ones, and I'd be happy to be able to make sure I don't put anything too overpowered on my team.

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March 10, 2014 at 7:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

The idea I had was that Tam and myself would each play two E4 members, with CJ as Champion and Diddy as Challenger. It's rather rude to assign roles to others, so that's just a suggestion on my part. And of course if we manage to add new participants between now and then, we can easily work them in too.


Once we come to an agreement about roles, though, I guess deciding the banlists is the next order of business. The most effecient way to do that would probably be just to copy Smogon's Ubers and OUs and weed out what we like at our discretion.

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March 10, 2014 at 7:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I'm fine with being first Champion if Diddy is fine being first Challenger. I wouldn't mind a switch either, the team would be about the same anyhow lol!


Smogon doens't have a strict Ubers and OU yet still, but I'll give naming what should be what a go and we can discuss any disagreements.


Alright Ubers: Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, Ho-oh, Celebi, Latios, Latias, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Jirachi, Deoxys, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Cresselia, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus, Tornadus, Thundurus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Landorus, Kyruem, Keldeo, Melotetta, Genesect, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Possibly Mega-Blaziken and Mega-Kanga. Both were quick-banned by Smogon and Mega-Gengar is still suspect, though mostly for his Ability.


Challenger and Champion only. They may have up to ONE of these Pokemon: Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Entei, Raikou, Suicune, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Regigigas, Heatran, Azelf, Uxie, Mespirit, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp Hydregion, Volcorona, Hazorus, Rotom,


Suspect Pokemon for Smogon OU (may consider limiting only one per party or only to Champion and Challenger): Megas, Talonflame, Azumarill, Mamoswine, Wobbuffet, Smeargle, Togekiss


Now that is all considering that the battle style is akin to that of normal Competative battling. Switching, entry hazards, weather emphasis and the like. These lists could easily change if all but the challenger were restricted from switching and if we choose to ban or allow Hidden Ability Pokemon or not. Since without HA Politoed or Ninetails only T-tar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow will bring weather and therefore most teams won't focus around that. Also without hidden abilities some of the Pokes who are considered particularly nasty now (like Talonflame) would be neutered almost completely.


We should also discuss in earnest what items are allowed for Challenger and E4. In-game E4 wouldn't hold more than a Sitrus Berry and Challengers wouldn't likely have found any Choice Items till post-game (unless they were playing HG/SS). Likewise, new items like Weakness Policy and Assult Vest can only be obtained post-game after rigorus Battle Chateu-ing and could make for some particularly devastating play. Imagine if you will a battle where the Champion's final Pokemon is a T-tar with an Assult Vest....


I for one would like to see that the rules are that the E4 cannot switch Pokemon, we ban hidden abilities for all but the challenger and possibly the Champion, and that most items be disqualified. After all really what we are doing here is trying to provide a fun way to play with our favorite types of Pokemon and see how well we can slow-down someone with a balanced Party. But really the goal shouldn't be for the E4 and Champ to win, we want the Challenger to win and live their fantasy of beating an awesome E4 with their favorite Pokemon from every generation!

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March 10, 2014 at 8:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

That list sounds pretty right by me. Though I do really like the idea that the Challenger and the Champ may be allowed one Mega, as long as said Mega isn't like, Blaziken or something. And I'd like to say no Wobbuffet, ESPECIALLY not if E4 is limited with switching.


I like the idea of limiting the E4 and to some extent the items used, as well. On the other hand, the E4 in game is generally overleveled, and equipped with a couple of Full Restores. I think a fun alternative to help balance it out when it comes to our game would be maybe allowing a set number of switches per E4 member? Like maybe allowing, I don't know, 3 switches a game? I think that would add in a fun, unpredictable element while helping to prevent the odds from being too stacked up against the challenger. Of course, moves that switch out the Pokemon like U Turn and Volt Switch would NOT be counted for the switch limit here.


As far as limited items go, I'm a little bit on the fence. I definitely see your point, it would help bring in that in-game feel, and help keep the battles from being too... competitive? Weighted? Keep it from feeling too much like a standard competitive battle. On the other hand, I feel like there are several Pokemon that would be great on a Type team that might not shine without some of the nicer items and could limit what people want to use. 

If we decide to go the route of limiting items, my recommendation would be no items that typically are only achieved in post-game. This would prevent Choice items and stuff like the Assualt Vest and Focus Sash and whatnot. Things I think this should allow for would be Leftovers, Black Sludge (not really useful to an E4 team unless it's Poison or has a Poison Wildcard though, I guess?), Wise Glasses and whatever the physical equivalent is, specific held items like Charcoal and all the Plates, and of course berries. Not really a full list there, but that's the general idea. And possibly also an item rule that prevents more than one of each item being used.


I'm also a bit on the fence about Hidden Abilities. I've already put some thought into my teams and there is one Pokemon I was hoping to use that would be about as effective as a wet paper towel without her Hidden Ability. I absolutely understand the concern that a lot of Pokemon are overpowered with their Ability, though. I'll be glad with whatever the consensus is here, it would be easy to replace the one HA Pokemon that I was considering.

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March 10, 2014 at 10:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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