Predictable Randomness

I have an all new idea (although it is debately non-original) about a Pokemon challenge to be done here on PR! This is a simple concept but, naturally, I make it complicated with rules and such so feel free to critque.

This would require 6 people (minimum) but could include as many people as we need. Essentially, 5 members of PR will form the Elite Four. 4 people would have the roles of the trainers in the E4 (meaning they are limited to a certain type of Pokemon) while the 5th person will act as the champ with a well balanced team and, for the sake or realism. The catch to being the champ is that the team must be balanced. I.e. The champ (normally) couldn't have duel type representations and shouldn't have a team of pseudo-uber pokemon. The 4 Elite Four Trainers on the other hand, are allowed to have 2 of the same pokemon on a team, but no more. The trainer challenging the E4 can have a team of any 6 non-uber pokemon they want.

The idea behind this is to make it as realistic as possible so the 1 trainer *could* have 6 of the same Pokemon if he/she truly wanted. Here's a mock setup in case people want it kinda mapped out.

Mitsuo-Dexi is the person challengin the Elite Four.

B "Diddy" M, Shenaenay, Cecil-Jacobs, and Antwan are chosen to be the Elite Four trainers.

Comriku is chosen to be the Champ.

A person, preferably uninvolved in the challenge (aka none of the 6 people), picks the types for the 4 E4 trainers to use. This is when 1 of two things happen. In all honesty, in real life, most of us know what types the E4 have and plan our parties accordingly. Also, in the anime / games, the trainer typically knows through NPC banter what types the E4 trainers have individually.. therefore, once the 4 types are picked, the trainer challenging the E4 would be notified which types they have (but not which pokemon). The champ, however, remains a mystery. The champ also will not know what pokemon the E4 has until *after* teamsets have been locked in. We wouldn't want the champ to be thinking, "Ok so Diddy got Dark type so the trainer will probably bring a fighting type pokemon.. I'll grab a Ghost to counter that." etc etc. Since the Trainer is going 6 pokemon vs. 5 trainers, having that indepth studying by the champ would be almost unfair. The OTHER option is for the trainer to know absolutely nothing about the E4. As in, they don't know anything except there are 4 trainers in between him/her and the champ.

There are a few issues that need to be ironed out before we can start grabbing peeps for this so i'll list them and hope we can all get an answer:

1. How do we want to approach held items? The items would, normally, only be available to the trainer. The E4 have never had items, to my knowledge, on their pokes other than berries. Do we want to open it up to E4 trainers to have held items, only allow the trainer to use held items, or bar everyone from using them?

2. As previously mentioned, do we want to allow the trainer to know all the types he/she will be facing or do we want it to be a mystery?

3, Should we follow recongnized clauses? If so, should this include the species clause?

4. Should the trainer be limited from Ubers? Or should we put a limit to the number they can have? (ex. the trainer challenging could have 1 uber pokemon on their team for the duration of the challenge).

5, Should we in some way limit EV training and the like? It would be difficult for people to obtain pokemon with certain types on short notice and I know many of us do not have the time or patience for EV training a team we may only use a few times. The only way I feel we could allow this is through the use of SAV'd pokemon. Since it's not for a "competitive" battle scene and we wouldn't cheat on the numbers (like 31IVs across the board).

Rules:

1. The trainer challenging the gym will have multiple days to prepare for the challenge. In the event we all agree upon using Sav'd pokemon, all challengers must have the list of pokemon they which to have sav'd sent to the person who is doing the sav'ing a few days before the match. In the event we do not allow sav'ing, all players will be given time to plan a team and, if necessary, train one.

1a. All trainers taking part in the E4 battles must have a list of the Pokemon they are using with moves and items listed for a hard copy. It should be sent to the third party who picked the types of the E4 trainers to ensure there is no team switching. After everyone has their pokemon turned in, they are locked. For the duration of the challenge, no one may exchange moves, pokemon, or items.
.

2. Only the trainer and the Elite Four trainers are allowed to have duplicate Pokemon. In the case of the trainer, he/she is allowed to have any number of the same pokemon. In the case of the E4 trainers, they can have 2 of any pokemon on their team, but it can only be done once (i,e. E4 trainers must have 5 unique pokemon with 1 pokemon that can be a different pokemon or the same pokemon as one of the other 5)

3. The Champion is allowed to use any non-uber pokemon they choose without duplications. Ideally, the Champion would use his roll to make a balanced team that could, in theory, beat any other team imaginable. The Champion is the champ for a reason after all.

4. At any point, a trainer may drop out of the challenge by forfieting.

4a. In the case of a disconnection, the battle is considered a tie unless one trainer admits there was no way they could've taken the victory. In the case neither trainer believes they would have lost but the spectators or one trainer would prove they would win, the victory is given to the other trainer. (An example of a time when a vote would be called is if a trainer is convinced they could've come back but it was only through the ways of "lucky" hax like crits).

Ab. In the case that the battles go on for a long time, the trainer may take a pause from battling. This would typically mean only putting it off for about 30min- an hour but could be extended to a few days. Unless we get overwhelming response to this, delaying a challenge for a week or so shouldn't be a problem unless someone really wants to change their role).

4c. *This is where we need a rule about length of games. Should we put a cap or a way to limit Stall matches? If their a more people wanting to play, a 20 mintue stall match is no fun for anyone)

Anyone interested please reply and critque! Anything is flexible and I honestly just want to see the challenge in action. The goal is for it to be a fun way to play as opposed to a stressful tournament. This is, essentially, a glorified lulz battle and is being designed to be fun. Happy gaming!

I want to like this Diddy, I really do. You have definately gone into more depth than most times I have seen something like this brought up, for that I commend you. 

The thing is, I have seen something similar to this on almost every Pokemon thread I have been in over my long Pokemon career and they just fall apart. People don't want to do the work, they forget, the rules are shoddy: some of the many reasons why they fall through. 

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to do this. It would be incredibly fun (I think) and I know I'll put my effort into trying to make it work. All I mean to say is we need some real dedication from others as well.

Now to actually respond to your message with my 2 cents;

I think the Elite Four shouldn't use items except one Sitrus Berry on their "Starter". Whether the trainer knows the types is a hard question. When playing the games I don't remember getting intell on what types the Elite Four were, I remember getting it from the Four as I challenged them, and then from the Internet. I think we should let them know, but that is just my opinion.
I think we should keep to all clauses as well.

I think the other questions on the post need to be answered by another question. What level are we doing this at? Is it going to be staggered like the Elite Four is in the game? Or just set 50 or 100? Can the players controlling the Elite Four Switch? (Cynthia Switched on me plenty, but all the others just sat and let there Pokes get killed). These are importent questions to know the answer to for our Player Elite Fours, as well as our Challenger. 

I'm going to cut this post off here because it is getting long for a responce and I don't want to kill the enthusiasim with words. Sorry that I didn't get all your questions.

Cecil-Jacobs at February 25, 2011 at 10:17 AM

I want to like this Diddy, I really do. You have definately gone into more depth than most times I have seen something like this brought up, for that I commend you. 

The thing is, I have seen something similar to this on almost every Pokemon thread I have been in over my long Pokemon career and they just fall apart. People don't want to do the work, they forget, the rules are shoddy: some of the many reasons why they fall through. 

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to do this. It would be incredibly fun (I think) and I know I'll put my effort into trying to make it work. All I mean to say is we need some real dedication from others as well.

Now to actually respond to your message with my 2 cents;

I think the Elite Four shouldn't use items except one Sitrus Berry on their "Starter". Whether the trainer knows the types is a hard question. When playing the games I don't remember getting intell on what types the Elite Four were, I remember getting it from the Four as I challenged them, and then from the Internet. I think we should let them know, but that is just my opinion.
I think we should keep to all clauses as well.

I think the other questions on the post need to be answered by another question. What level are we doing this at? Is it going to be staggered like the Elite Four is in the game? Or just set 50 or 100? Can the players controlling the Elite Four Switch? (Cynthia Switched on me plenty, but all the others just sat and let there Pokes get killed). These are importent questions to know the answer to for our Player Elite Fours, as well as our Challenger. 

I'm going to cut this post off here because it is getting long for a responce and I don't want to kill the enthusiasim with words. Sorry that I didn't get all your questions.

Normally I don't quote stuff like this, but I want to make sure I can cover most of it.

I agree with the Sitrus Berry. I was thinking about it last night and I decided that if we allowed held items on the E4 members (even factoring in type disadvantages) the trainer would be, essentially, playing against 5 skilled competitive trainers. Whereas that is the intent, it would take the "lulz" from it and make it less real. The E4 trainers are good in the series WITHOUT items and the E4 we pick here should be too. And those who would argue that the sitrus berry isn't all that important.. A long time ago, in my first play through of Ruby, I lost to Steven because of his Gross' Sitrus Berry. That Berry healed him to the point where my Blaziken's Blaze Kick would just barely miss the kill.

The Level question is a very good one. I assumed we'd do it at level 100 but that makes the Berry relatively useless (+30hp on a lvl 100 Blissey? Fail). I am now leaning towards making the levels closer to the game. However, this would make it less fun to be a lower trainer on the totem poll b/c level disadvantage can make a difference. To counter this, I believe we should set a level system. I propose we set the first E4 trainers pokemon at level 55-57, the 2nd to 56-58, the 3rd to 57-59, the 4th to 58-60 and the champ having a team of level 60-62. To trainer challenging, to ensure that the earlier trainers aren't just pushovers, will have a floor of 3 level 58 pokemon, 2 level 56, and 1 level 60. Of course, these number can be tweaked. The Champ *IS* supposed to have an advantage and the first few trainers are the first battle for a reason. And to those who think "My Charizard doesn't learn Flare Blitz until level 66! THIS IS UNFAIR!!!!!!" You can breed a male charizard with the moveset you want with a ditto and the baby charmander will have all the moves of the original Charizard. The E4 is allowed to Switch pokemon if they want. I have seen other members of the E4 switch out multiple times but, from what I understand, the reason the first four don't switch is because the AI only has 1 type of pokemon. If you're a grass trainer and fighting a fire type pokemon, it wouldn't make sense to switch out when a pokemon is low because you still won't have type advantage. The AI knows that and doesn't switch. The champs switch b/c they have a balanced team that *can* counter type weaknesses.

I understand your skeptisicm and garuntee you that I will be working hard as well to get this plan in action- given appropriate interest.

That all sounds good, I am glad to hear you take the initiative and answer those questions. I completely agree with everything except one, and the one factoid you have slightly wrong.

Sitrus berries actually heal a % of your health now, instead of 30hp. It used to be that way back in 3rd gen, but not anymore. I can understand why you might have thought that. Hope that doesn't mess up your ideas about the Levels.

I still disagree with Elite Four being able to switch. You make a valid point about the AI, and I don't dispute that part. What I worry about is pre-emptive switching. Something AI can never do that Humans can. A Human can see a likely EQ coming at them and switch to a Flying type whereas AI have to be hit by an EQ first to do that. It gives a lot of power to the Player Elite Four if they can switch like that. 

Of course, that could easily be remidied if the Challenger had his Pokemon Healed after every fight?

my vote goes to set lv.100 battles. and i think, since the challenger effectively gets a full heal between each battle, we shouldn't try too hard to make life more difficult for the E4 members. we should make the playing field as level as possible.

i don't think we should dumb ourselves down to match the AI limitations of the games; therefore, i say switching should be allowed for all parties.

i'm a little torn on items, i see both sides but in a way my principles clash with the idea of only letting the E4 have one sitrus berry, again based on the theme of "level playing field." don't forget the E4 in the games is also prone to using full restores, something we can't do. so maybe giving them items for each poke helps balance that out a bit.

don't set a time limit. no need for that.

don't allow anything on PR's banned list, but also don't restrict the E4 from having access to non-banned legendaries.

i also think the challenger should be subject to species clause, but i like the idea of allowing two of the same for the E4 members.

and definitely don't tell the challenger what types he'll be facing.

Here's my newly updated rules (with the previous post's comments mixed in):

1. The levels of all Pokemon will be bumped to level 100. It is impossible to perfectly mimic the E4 due to the lack of items, such as Full Restores, and the challengers ability to heal after every battle. To make it a more balanced competition, all battles will be set at level 100.

*If someone wants a more advanced challenge, we can attempt to do a level varied challenge. However for the initial attempts at this, set 100 is the level*

2. All previously made PR clauses are in use. This includes the species clause for everyone EXCEPT the Elite Four trainers (not including the champion). In the case you are a trainer in the E4, you may use ONE duplicate pokemon species for your given type. For example: If Antwan was chosen to be restricted to WATER-type pokemon, he could use Blastoise, Milotic, Gyrados, Poliwrath, Azumarill, and for the 6th slot he could use any other WATER type pokemon OR Blastoise, Milotic, Gyrados, Poliwrath, and Azumarill.

3a. The Elite Four (including the Champion) may only use berries. This means the Elite Four are allowed to have any berry they choose on any pokemon. The only excpetion to this rule is Sitrus Berries (heals 25% of Max HP when used) which can only be used on the "main" pokemon for the team. For example, if Cecil-Jacobs was chosen to be the FIRE-type trainer, he can choose one of his pokemon to be his "Main" pokemon. This pokemon acts as the backbone of the party (although it is not necessary for that to be true). This is more of a roleplay aspect than a battle one. Pick your favorite pokemon / strongest pokemon / whatever you want to have the Sitrus Berry. Going back to Cecil-Jacobs, lets say his team is Charizard, Blaziken, Arcanine, Moltes, Camperupt, and Charizard. He then decided that his second Charizard is the most threatening pokemon on his team so he decided it will be his main pokemon. He would then give that Charizard a Sitrus Berry for use in the battle. The other 5 pokemon are then not allowed to use a Sitrus Berry.

3b.The challenger can use any berry (with the same Sitrus berry stimpulation as the E4 trainers) AND all non-PR banned items except Choice Scarf. The reason we are banning Choice Scarf is because if a trainer has a Pokemon with a type advantage against the E4 trainer, a Scarf would cause them to outspeed the other teams pokemon and sweep without mercy. Whereas some would argue that is just one strategy (and one that would arguably would be based on luck), I feel it would be best to avoid the situation entirely.

4. Everyone in the challenge is allowed to switch pokemon DURING battle as they see fit. The day before the challenge, all Pokemon being used by each trainer will be sent to the organizer with the list of Pokemon they are using along with the lead pokemon they are using. The trainer's will be locked into this team WITH their listed lead as their team. They may switch on the first move if they choose, but it can not be before the match. The Challenger is not limited by this (for reasons we will cover in rule 5). The challenger may pick a new lead pokemon as he/she chooses before each battle.

5. The Challenger will go into the challenge without any prior knowledge of the Elite Four's pokemon. The trainers in the Elite Four will also not know what the Challenger's Pokemon are. Naturally, we will attempt to set up a stream / recording of each match for people to watch. Due to this, the Elite Four members will be exposed to what pokemon the Challenger has with potential movesets. Whereas this is a major disadvantage (one which, theoritically will be covered by the challengers usage of itmes), the Challenger will allowed to switch leads before each match so ensure the trainers do not know the exact strategies the challenger will use.

5. There will be no time-limit on a match. A battle should be, on average, roughly 10-15 minutes long and it will more than likely be streaned for viewing to anyone interested. Due to this, people shouldn't become more watching and will, hopefully, be cheering on whoever they want to win. There shouldn't be a problem with people being so impatient that they cannot wait to play. In that case, the Elite Four poses this question: "Would you kindly be patient?" Everyone is excited to play, but please be patient and give everyone ample time to finish their match without feeling rushed.

6a. The Challenger may take a 30m-1hour break once per challenge. Exceptions may be allowed on an individual basis but with 6 people putting in a lot of effort to make this work, it's unfair to keep them waiting for an even longer amount of time.

6b. In the event of a disconnection (based on NWC; turning off your DS is an instant loss) the battle is considered a tie. In the event there was no chance one of the trainers could've come back, the victory will go to whoever was in the lead as long as both parties agree. If one trainer argues that there was no chance for them to and the opposing trainer believes there was, a vote will be held. If a trainer is up 6-1 and the opposing trainer believes they could sweep if they banked on haxes, more than likely that trainer would have lost. We expect more people participating in the challenge to be friendly and help each other out, so please avoid starting a problem. Remember: There is no shame at all in losing a match. This is for fun and no one is going to think less of you for losing. Be honest during your matches as well!

7. Again, anything that is NOT on PR's ban list or previously banned in one of the aforementioned rules is considered fair game. If you get psychic as your type as a Elite Four trainer, feel free to use Azelf. If you are the challenger and looking for some bulk, go pick up Heatran. If you're the champion and want a good backup pokemon, Regirock is always an option.

Things still not covered:

Pokesav

EV training

On a side note, if it can work out, I believe this would be a fantastic thing to try Saturday. Since this is the last week of Generation IV, I believe we should help it go out with a bang. I'll be posting some random pokemon threads, Nick as aPokelypse Now! and CJ has his new Pokemon of the Week series. Let's give Pearl, Diamond, Platinum, SoulSilver, and HeartGold the going away they deserve. /salute

p.s. Comment on the rules and if you are interested in participating! This isn't just for Antwan, CJ, and I!

i'd like to play devil's advocate again for the idea of giving E4 members full item access as well, just because a part of me is still not ok with limiting them to sitrus berries. the E4 is already at a disadvantage by being limited to monotype teams. again, thanks to the full restoration the challenger gets between each match, we're forced to do without the true challenge of an in-game E4. this still feels like it's unfairly skewed towards the challenger and i'm afraid this may not be hard enough. it's SUPPOSED to be harder for the challenger, that's the whole point of it in the games.

as for pokesav/EV training, i say allow both. in order to make good monotype teams, i'll probably need some help from CJ anyway, so we may as well assume all pokemon involved are ready for a serious competitive battle.

and it's not the last week of gen IV, it's just the last week of gen IV as the prominent and most modern generation. i, for one, will always be up for a gen IV battle. i'm not transferring any of my battlers onto Black and in fact, i still doubt i'll even play gen V competitively.

EDIT: one more idea for this comes from what actual battle communities do for monotype tournaments and things of the like, and that is allowing the E4 members to have one "wild card" poke on each team. i.e., a poke that is not of the type they represent. real E4 members in the games do this all the time anyway, like Aaron's Drapion for instance. this isn't an idea i'm even sure i like, but it's something no one has mentioned yet so i thought i'd bring it up.

I am all for this. Let's do it! I dun care what person I am so long as I get to participate (As more than a spectator)

Pokesav: The only person I know with Pokesav is Me. Other people cna use it and learn it but unless you have an Action replay of some sort then I would still have to put the pokes on one of my games and trade them to you.

I don't mind doing this as long as I get timely, specific, orders. It doesn't take me long to SAV a team (I did 8 for Hideki in about an hour, and his required some detective work). 

EV Training: I say do it. You could if you wanted to in the games, and at lv.100 it won't affect the game TOO much. Plus if I am sav'ing things it won't be hard at all.

My question is, will we have set IV's for SAV'd Pokes for the Elite Four and Champ? Usually they run IV16 all for Elite Four and IV31 all for Champion.

I am thinking of it as the last week because soon, everything will based on G. 5 like you said. It would still be fun to have a pokemon week in it's honor though.

If it'd help, I can grab an action replay and do some Sav'ing. I'm sure there's a how to somewhere or I'll just ask CJ for some help.

I understanding the position you have on items for the trainers and I'm ok with it 100%. I just want to make sure that the challenger isn't scared away from the challenge b/c it's way against them. But, you're probably right. I am kinda making it a little too light. It is the E4 they're facing afterall. Maybe we could approach it with all items except banned / choice scarf items?

I feel the same way as CJ. I just want to do this so I could care less about a role as long as it's not spectator.

EV training and Sav'ing will be allowed until someone poses a reason why they should not be allowed. There really isn't a reason to not allow it in the long run.

I disagree with the Wild Care aspect because I like only using 1 type, but it *could* be used on an idividuals preference if there was enough interest. I probably won't do it either way, but I'll leave it out there.

I think IVs should be set around 16-22 for Sav'd pokemon and whatever they happen to be for trained pokemon. I'm not opposed to all 31 for the champion, but i'm not 100% on how much of a difference that makes. Again it is supposed to be hard so I'm in favor of it. But we don't want it to be "impossible".

Hmmm.. Learning to SAV properly isn't hard, but there are some pitfalls I need to advise you of if you want to.

As for questions about full item use, I think we should test it. All we need to decide is which why try first. I am starting to lean toward full item use on E4 to, but eh.

I completely forgot about wild carding. I would say that the reason E4 uses it is because there aren't enough Pokes in their type, but even Second E4 runs against Lance he still uses a Charizard. I say let them go as long as they look the part. The Water E4 guys can't get a Camerupt, but maybe he can still use Regice because it is Frozen water.

i think CJ is right; i propose allowing both full items use for the E4 (minus hax and choice scarf) and also allow the wild card for the first time we use this. we can use the information we gather from our initial run to determine whether the ideas are brought back next time.

also, item clause. i think this should be used for the challenger (all parties if you decide to go with letting the E4 have items) as it is an official rule for many in-game challenges.

as for me and sav, i cannot sav until they make a mac-friendly version. i also don't have an AR so yeah.

this idea died. that is unacceptable.

NICK used REVIVE on this thread!

MITSUO used TROLL.

ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE

NICK used RAGEGUY!

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Well it just so happens Unova's E4 has inspired me to continue this idea- what a surprise! (Bless you new Pokemon Generations.. I will never doubt you again)

Now, not everyone may agree with this, but I REALLY liked being able to pick the order I challenged the E4 so I believe the trainer challenging should be able to know the MAIN type of the E4 trainers parties when the challenge starts. Of course, the challenger won't know this info before hand so they'll be stuck with their team (i.e. they can't change it at that point). Also, someone may need to check this for me but I heard there is a new way to battle that allows you to build up points and use items during battles. Like, every turn you get points and certain items (Xattack, full restore, etc) can be used with those points. This would eliminate the item problem of the E4 and we could just let everyone use items based on their points.

BAM

Diddy just knocked this %^&* out of the park.

i haven't heard anything about the point system and items thing, i'll have to look into that... if we can figure out how to use that, though, i like that idea. maybe give all the E4 members 2 full restores, and the challenger gets like 8 but has to spread those out amongst all five battles?

i can't say i like the idea of telling them beforehand what type you are, even if it means they can't change teams after knowing. however... if we're doing this on gen V games, it won't matter anyway, since wifi reveals both player's teams prior to the match. meaning the challenger will know right then

It is called Wonder Launcher. It works just like Diddy explains, you get points and can spend them on items, although I don't know how you gian these points.
I do know we can't start the Elite Four with more points or items than the challenger, but I think it is a perfectly fair option to bring to the Elite Four battles here.

I am ambivalent about the type announcement idea. I don't think it will matter too mucn if they know beore or not, because even types that had sparce amounts of Pokemon in them (Like Steel and Electricity) now have a plethora of types in them and so guessing which ones the Four Member has is still difficult. After all, Say you go against a Elite Four with Psychic. You bring your Gengar, Uh-oh I have a Girafarig. Too bad. o)

can we please try and get this started?

I agree. Let's Start! Who is going to be what?

i'm good for anything. i'll fill whatever role others don't sign up for.