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Crimson DESTR0YA
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This is an idea I've had since before X and Y came out and that others seem to like, so I'd like to make a formal thread here to discuss some strategies you've implemented or are considering. This'll be a general brainstorming thread, feel free to bring up your own favorites from this Gen and provide constructive input into others'.


I'll start us off by talking a little bit about my first team, the one in my signature. I formed that team completely blind and also before Bank and Transfer were released, and now that I know more about things that are good that I wasn't expecting, I doubt I'll be using that exact team too much more. However, I do love each and every Pokémon individually, and I'm sure you'll be seeing them mixed in more often. Also I wasn't sure the competitive metagame would embrace Megas as they have, so I planned this team to use and face no Megas. It's fared alright against them so far, but this will also be an oversight I will correct in my next teambuilding session. Now a few words on this team:


Crobat: I love Crobat in this Gen. Believe it or not, this is my first experience using Crobat competitively, and now I have no idea why I didn't try it sooner. It fits my style perfectly, I love the speed combined with bulk, even if STAB Brave Bird often does less than I expect it to do. I currently have two, one with Defog and one without, with slight variance in their EV spreads but both are generally the same idea. Provides good tertiary walling coverage behind my two main walls.

Scizor: Nice to see CB Scizor is still as potent as ever. I pretty much always Banded Marisa and she pretty much always was the difference in a win and a loss for me. The only reason I can think of why anyone would run Mega Scizor over CB Scizor is for Swords Dance. Which, basically, unless you have a Fire move or can threaten Will O Wisp (maybe T-Wave?), its bulk is going to let it get up for free. I may try this strat pretty soon, but for now, she's good old CB and has not let me down.

Starmie: You know it's sad, but I almost always wasted poor Jet-Star. I really have no idea how viable special sweeper Starmie is in this gen despite having one on my team from day one. He never got enough action for me to gauge his ability in the modern game. The hit to Hydro Pump's power hurt, and led me to swap it for Scald. Never really got to see how much that hurt its efficacy, but I feel very little desire to use Hydro Pump on anything anymore. BoltBeam obviously, and good old Rapin Spin round out the set (back in my day, Defog didn't do nothin' to clear hazards). Ripped straight out of 4th Gen, and sadly I never got to see if it translates.

Noivern: Here's one I was excited to try out. A superfast dragon with good but not ridiculous power, good enough movepool, and a really tricksy ability? Hell yeah. I kept hoping to meet a traditional SubPunch Breloom to troll over with Infiltrator, but sadly I never did. One of these days, though. Usually Life Orb but I've also tried Specs a little. The end result is that in either case, Noivern does not have the power to be your only special sweeper. Pair it with another capable special attacker though and don't ask TOO much of it, and you'll hopefully love it as much as I do.

Ferrothorn: Nothing too special about my Ferro; pretty standard set with Seed and Rocks, and while the EV spread is my own balance it's all just in defensive stats. What perhaps is unique is my choice to forgo Lefties for a Rocky Helmet. Initially I only did this because I just had one set of Leftovers, but having seen the success of the Barbs/Helmet combo, I'm not sure I ever will put Lefties on this guy. Nothing is going to hit him physically without getting absolutely rolled in the process, and it's easy to find a nice special wall to compensate for his weaknesses on that side of the board. This shouldn't be news to any of you, but Ithink it's still safe to say that Ferro should be one of the first options you consider for defense on any team.

Florges: I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw Base 154 Special Defense, access to Wish, and immediately saw it as Fairy Vaporeon. Max HP, Max Defense helps it take physical hits more than well enough, while its natural Special bulk is more than adequate for that side, too. It gets Aromatherapy but I opted against it because I don't trust myself to run Wish without Protect. Also I thought I needed a Toxic user, and for whatever reason I opted for her instead of Crobat (though I am now considering putting it on my non-Defog bat in lieu of U-Turn. I keep finding myself having my Bat in with no good moves to use, but wishing I had Toxic). Overall, while "Fairy Vaporeon" is probably a fair moniker for it, "New Vaporeon" is not. It won't take hits THAT well, and you shouldn't expect it to. It needs support and its bulk is the kind that's great to utilize, not to rely upon.


Let me know what you think about my first team, and let us know a little about yours!

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April 2, 2014 at 11:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Ooh a chance to talk about my Pokemon? Yes please.

Firstly, I wanted to critique Nicks's team in earnest on the right page and maybe give insight as to why I did some of the things I did in our battle together. I assumed a lot that wasn't true, but that is to be expected with the first battle of an entire gen!


Your Crobat, man how do I say this? I wanted to kill it so bad. Like a stuck-bull that had just been told his wife was leaving him, all I could think about killing something haha. It was incredibly frustrating how Rocks weren't even helping me take it down, it has just enough speed to roost in your face which only is detrimental if the enemy is packing EQ, a move that has seen a sharp fall this gen since so many fliers are making their way into the Meta thanks to Defog and the OP power of Flying moves.Your bat ALMOST makes me want to train my own. Almost.


You are right about Scizor, SD is the bread and butter of M!Scizor. It has probably shifted that was because of the nerfs to Steel resistance so Scizor doesn't switch in quite as well. Plus, since Scizor can pack it's own Defog, Roost, and SD I can see a bulky set-up set being used to great efficency. No lefties if you go Mega though.


I felt bad OHKOing Starmie too, but I think it's time has gone man. It was proclaimed UU about 2 weeks ago and probably won't resurface. The nerf to Hydro Pump is really what did it in, you just can't run LO/Specs like you used to unless it is in rain, which has been outclassed in favor of Sun (You can thank M!CharizardY for that).


Your Noivern, to me, could be better. Specs Infiltrator, I totally see it, but I personally prefer Frisk + Switcheroo on a Specs Noivern. Just theorizing here, but with Frisk and Specs you turn your Revenge Killer into a dual Item Scout. Imagine learning the Megas on the team, who has lefties, and if one is banded or scarfed at the beginning of the match? Plus in the later game you can trick your Specs onto something and cripple it knowing exactly what item you'll be getting in return! That outweighs Infiltraitor to me, esp since you Bat runs Infiltraitor right?


See, it is funny hearing you talk about your Thorn getting the helmet only because you don't have enough lefites to go around. I thought it was on purpose, because before the banning of M!Kangaskan that was one of the most realiable ways to take it out. Still, I was surprised at how badly that screwed up my team. I kept forgetting it had the helmet too, all around bad for me. I wouldn't count on me forgetting a second time though. I know I'm going to be switching my Pokemon around after that battle.


honestly, I don't see the appeal of Florges. I'm personally agaisnt the design, so maybe it is just that bias, but I don't think it does anything special. Sylveon gets Wish, has a gigantic Sp.Df, and more HP for wish-passing, plus it is still Fairy. Maybe it is just me play style as well, but Wish-passing never works for me. If I was to have a special wall it would be a Pokemon with an Assult Vest. If you don't know about Assult Vest, check it out. It is beastly on T-tar and Goodra.

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Ask me about my waifus

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April 3, 2014 at 11:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Now about my own team! Hope it doesn't get too confusing with me posting my own crap while responding to Nick's team.


Mandibuzz: Anyway, If I had to talk about my favorite Pokemon on this team it would be my Mandibuzz. Seriously, that thing was beastly. I was really proud of it outstalling your Florges because IT WAS NOT TRAINED FOR SP. DEF OMG. Granted, I wouldn't have been able to do that like I did if Toxic Spikes weren't already on the field, and I did make some mistakes taunting when I should have been Roosting. I wouldn't expect me to drop her anytime soon unless Nick's Thorn becomes such a pain that I have to.


Excadrill: Gosh I love him in theory, and I still do. Problem was, I really had no idea how to use him properly. I feel like I really let him down that battle, he could have done so much more. I was afraid using him too because, and I did not know this, he was UBER in B&W. Wow! Everything about him seems right though, Mold Breaker to handle levitators, Rapid Spin for support, and SD if I found a chance to set-up. Next time buddy, I'll do my research and try to bring out your best.


Tyranitar: I still think it is viable. He did a great job threatening and walling what he needed to , plus it set Rocks for me and had such a lovely sand Stream to help keep lefovers recovery at bay. Giving him a Mega stone was bad though. I kinda just did it for intimidating factor, he really needs lefovers recovery, especially if I can't get rocks off my own field. I don't think I used you to your full potential either bro, but I promise to rectify that.


Trevenant: I found his use to be a little underwhelming. I loved using my own in-game and he seems like a perfect Rapid-spin blocker, which I need. This set is a more conservative Nature Cure + Lefovers and Horn Leech for recovery. I know that his missing of 2 Will O Wisps really hurt him, but I still can't shake that he was more of a drag than a help.


Talonflame: Duuuuuude. I still love this guy. I thought you were boned Nick when you let him get 3 SDs in. I would have never thought a Scizor would have outsped a Talonflame though, even paralyzed. Oh well. I wish I would have paid more attention to the rocks that game, I would have never thrown him out in them and would have instead switched to my Tentacruel to Rapid Spin those away. Oh well, for next time.


Tentacruel: Honestly, I used it because I couldn't think of anything else. I built my team but had a very large hole because I had no special attackers and I knew running my Talonflame and Mandibuzz would make my team really SR weak. So I added him in as another Spinner only because he is also Special. I don't think I'll be keeping him though. I need something else and two spinners really is unneeded.

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April 3, 2014 at 12:17 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Link to Smogon's research page so we all know the new mechanics of the game. Link to their other research page. Scroll down to Known Info.

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Ask me about my waifus

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April 3, 2014 at 1:47 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Looks like I may have to eat my words about disliking Florges. Someone just tipped me a perfect 5IV Shiny Flabebe on Reddit!

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Ask me about my waifus

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April 4, 2014 at 10:14 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Oooh, nice shiny! I think you'll like her once you start to use her. Like I said in my recap of my own, she's as good a cleric as it gets outside Vap and Bliss, just don't rely TOO heavily on the bulk. She's best as a secondary or perhaps even tertiary wall if you want to go really defensive. Some SpAtk might not hurt either, although she can't hit with much outside of Moonblast.


Now, in response to the critique of my team...

I am so proud of Seras, omg. She reminds me so much of Poe back circa '10-'11. Expect to see MUCH more of her. 

Pains me to say, but I think you're right about Starmie. Maybe a bulky set is worth trying? Although in prior Gens that was only effective when the opponent was expecting sweeper Star... I'm still interested in trying it, but not convinced. Feels weird to say that about one of the formerly most reliable guys out there.

Your suggested Noivern set sounds really interesting, and I'll probably try one out soon. But i think you may be underselling Marceline a bit. I think she would have given you much more trouble had Draco Meteor not missed; that miss pretty much guaranteed she was going to do nothing that battle. I swear I hit more Stone Edges than Draco Meteors. That move does not agree with me.


Now your team...

So wait, was that Buzz max HP max Def? Cause dang that thing tanked Specials too, wow. I love Mandibuzz. Unfortunately the one you Sav'd for me back in '11 wouldn't come through transfer for whatever reason, so I have to raise another one. Shame, I LOVED PlagueDoc in what little I played of 5th Gen.

Excadrill was Ubered in 5th because of Sand Rush and I support that banning, but no problems with Mold Breaker. That's a fantastic 'Drill though, you'll notice I did most of my damage to it with Ferro's residuals. Without him I would have had such a hard time with that guy, I'd encourage you to stick with him.

I agree Ikana probably would have been better of with Lefties over Mega (FANTASTIC name btw, omg), but that thing still made me sweat bullets. The intimidation factor definitely worked. Although like with Scizor, the best use I see for Mega!Tar is DD. Looking forward to trying that myself...

Funny to hear you say you were underwhelmed by Trevenant, I kinda felt like that thing spent half the battle trolling me. Can you tell me a little more about his spread and role? He was never a thing I saw as competitively viable, but he gave me fits, and had he hit Wisp earlier I think it might have been a different game.

Heh, I was surprised I managed to take down the Destructor myself ^.^' (yet another name I appreciate, seriously, I'm honored to have such a beast carrying my name). I don't know Smogon standard for CB Scizor EVs, but I do believe I gave Marisa a little more Speed than is commonly seen. She's not max by any means, but she's probably a tad faster than your average Scizor. That thing is just terrifying though, no matter how you slice it. The reason I let it get to +6 was that I knew my only chance was to make it wreck itself with recoil until Marisa could Bullet Punch it down, and fortunately it seems I was right in thinking that.

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The destructor has gone

April 4, 2014 at 9:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Maybe. I had a bad experience using Flabebe in-game, not that it means much competativly. I don't think I've ever looked at Florges' stats till now and Base 154 SP.Df is nothing to sneeze at. It would compliment my team defensivly too, taking FIghting hits fro Ikana and messing up darks for Marshall Lee, argh! Damnit, I'll have to try it out.


I checked the damage calculator for Starmie and you'd have to run 252HP and 252 Df to survive a Brave Bird from my +2 Talonflame. (Probably the most important thing you'd need to check on my team anyway). That is assuming your Starmie is already in battle and SR is off your side of the field. Even then, Surf wouldn't quite OHKO back unless rocks were on my side. So take from that what you will.


So yes! My Buzz is max HP and DF. I don't think even I remembered that when I put her out against your Florges. So she was taking only about half her health from a base 95 Stab SE Moonblast coming off a base 112 SP.At! Damn! Sorry about PlagueDoc not getting through though. You can always borrow my Buzz to breed your own if you need to.


I didn't expect you to say that about the Trevenant, maybe I'll keep him around longer? He's Max HP, Max DF, with the Ability Natural Cure, Leftovers as the item, and Horn Leech, Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, and WoW as his moves. He's supposed to be a spinblocker, since I don't run Defog and want to keep my own Rocks Up.


Smogon common isn't to give any Speed to CB Scizor, 248 HP, 252 DF, and 8 SP.Df is their reccomendation. The only time Speed goes on Scizor is for SD sets. I checked though, and your Scizor should have outsped the Talonflame even without the Speed. He's not THAT fast lol. Once again, that damn Rocky Helmet really wasn't working in my favor  haha.


I can't re-watch our video without ruining my ablity to check eggs for the Shiny Values, could you remind me what Pokemon Marceline's Draco Meteor missed on? Also, I don't know why I didn't notice it till now but you had Marceline and I had Marshall Lee xD

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Ask me about my waifus

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April 5, 2014 at 10:45 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

Hey, this looks like quite an excellent thread here! Wish I could contribute to it better, but I'm pretty terrible at analysing competitive pokemon like this. I'd like to at least say, CJ, that Trevenant really was trouble and I'd recommend trying him out more, I can tell you he had Nick concerned! And BOY, that Mandibuzz. I really need to try one myself, that one was quite inspirational! Especially seeing it tank that much when it wasn't trained in sp def, dang. Nick, your Marceline sure gives me a ton of trouble. As it stands, my Zoidberg is one of my only hopes for taking it down, I'll definitely have to keep her in mind when I start designing more teammates. And I still gotta hold on to hope for Starmie, too! I remember the days it would make me sweat bullets when it popped up, and I think it was a one shot in our battle only thanks to forgetting Dark Pulse on Zoidberg, wasn't it? It just hasn't gotten a chance yet, I'm sure it can still pull something off! 


I guess I should talk a bit about my team too, though I feel kinda guilty at not being able to contribute more useful advice about others'.  I've used these guys enough that I should go ahead and reveal what's up on them.


Clawitzer: Pretty standard set here on a very lucky catch. Zoidberg here is my first shiny Clauncher catch, and came Quiet with wonderful defensive IVs. I've caught 3 Modest shinies since her and none have compared. I was pretty open about her fortunate defense, and used that to my advantage to give her an Assualt Vest. So when it seemed like she was bulky and scary beyond belief, that's why. It was a bit of an intimidation factor, along with not knowing what the heck else to go with. Plus, Nick once said he couldn't see the Vest being useful and I took that as a challenge, haha, sorry love! I've been meaning to reveal her item for a while now, felt mean-spirited to keep it a trick. I also feel like that might have contributed in you thinking Starmie wan't as good anymore, when really it was just that my Clawitzer was Vested. Anyway, Zoidberg has time and time again proved to be the bread and butter of my team with Water and Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, and Ice Beam. Tanks well and hits HARD, I'm pretty sure her EVs are nearly max HP, max sp atk with a little bit of random defenses by mistake. Of course she's slow as all get out, but she survives hits well enough to make up for that.


Diggersby: Found when I was checking someone's Freind Safari, and named "Bluh" because I just wasn't a fan and there were plenty of other things I was hoping for from a Ground Safari. Turns out, she has perfect Hp, perfect Attack, is Adamant, and has Huge Power. With Nick's help and advice, she was renamed Bluhd Bunny and given the set Agility, EQ, SE, and Wild Charge. Works well, but my main problem with her is that even when she sets up with Agility, she's often not fast enough, and finding a good enough match up for me to set her up in is tricky. She doesn't sweep quite as I'd like but I'm sure that's on me, I might need to save her for late game cleanups. Also considering switching out Agility for Return or Retaliate and Scarfing her, or running another faster Bunny like her with that set.


Gothitelle: Here's a gimmick I'm proud of coming up with, but just hasn't ever come through. EvilXmasTree here has Shadow Tag, perfect/near perfect HP and Def, and sets up with Calm Mind. His moves beyond that are Psyshock, T-Bolt, and Shadow Ball. He's meant to come in on something that can't hurt him and set up, but of course there's not much to do with him after that if he's successful, which I don't think I've managed to be yet. His slow speed makes a sweep hard, and even with his usual Rocky Helmet, he can't stand up to many physical attacks.


The other three on my card down there are pretty darn standard and I don't know what to say about them. Wish I had SR on Forretress instead of her Spikes, but I forgot that was an egg move. Mixed Mence has been kind of underwhelming for me honestly, makes for a nice Jack-of-all-trades but none of her stats are QUITE where I really need them when I really need them. Might retire for a better Fire user than just her Flamethrower, especially considering the high fear of fairies right now. Really like her Intimidate, though. Either that or I just need to use her more and get used to her. Gengar is awesome even without Mega, she's running the great Shadow Ball, T-bolt, Sludge Bomb, and Dazzling Gleam set and dang she comes through. She's the only really nice speed on my team right now though and I need more of that.

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April 5, 2014 at 3:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I did some digging about Gothitelle and I think you are sitting on a Goldmine! Smogon's page on Gothitelle has some delightfully evil ideas about how to use him.


For example, if you wanted to keep the Bulky Calm Mind you have now, you could try removing the Helmet and adding Leftovers and then pack Rest over T-bolt. Now you can come in on Pokemon who don't threaten you and Calm Mind in their face until you are at +6!


Of course, I like their other sets much better. If you considered adding Speed and Sp.AT in place of the defenses you could try for a Choice Specs/Scarf set with Trick! Think about it, Revenge-killing the likes of MegaCharizardY (You outspeed when Scarfed) while also being able to trap a helpless walls by tricking your Choice item onto them! Nothing would break stall like that. Which would be of great help to your Clawitzer or Diggersby!


Your Pokemon are all pretty slow, barring Gengar. I think your team might benefit from the new move Sticky Web. Heard about it? It is a field effect like SR and Spikes but instead of doing damage it instead lowers the speed of any Pokemon who switches in by 1. With good sticky web support even your Clawitzer would seem fast and you could afford to run a LO or Specs to increase his damage output immensly!


Other than that your team is pretty formidable. Really it is! I think you have the makings of something really fresh and strong here.

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Ask me about my waifus

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April 5, 2014 at 8:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Hey guys! I'm switched my team up, I've dropped the Tenacruel in favor of a Mega-Blastoise. I'm trying to decide now if I should switch Trevenant out now or not, I would appreciate a battle to test the waters, if someone has the time!

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Ask me about my waifus

"I'm happy to report that my inner child is still ageless". James Broughton

April 7, 2014 at 8:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

I'm also experimenting with some changes to my team, which my signature will reflect as soon as I can bug Tam into making another invisible tumblr post for me to link to (it's really weird what this site will and won't let me do). I've swapped out Starmie and Florges for Manectric and Vaporeon. The Vap is NOT Kalos-born, if anyone has a problem with that let me know and I'll put the Florges back in against you. They both do almost the exact same thing, I just made the switch because Vaporeon gives me crucial water I lost by dropping Starmie.

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April 8, 2014 at 6:11 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

Not being Kalos born doesn't bother me. Certain movesets are only possible that way after all. i would try to limit the dependancy on Pokemon like that if you could since they aren't allowed in tournaments though.


I wanted to say too, I thought our battle was good. And we're still learning too. I learned a lot from that match too. The Volt-Switch U-turn combo you had with your M!Manectric and Scizor was great. With a little bit of work and some hardcore Defog support that could be a killer strategy for keeping momentum and dealing damage!

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Ask me about my waifus

"I'm happy to report that my inner child is still ageless". James Broughton

April 8, 2014 at 8:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Man, I didn't even think I played that badly, it all sort of fell apart at once. Only thing I'd take back would be that Air Slash by Marceline. It felt like I was just outclassed =/

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April 8, 2014 at 9:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Crimson DESTR0YA
Administrator
Posts: 1888

Not to steal your thunder CJ, but I'm considering a sand team myself. The overall look would be different from yours I think, I'd probably share the 'Tar and maybe dat 'Buzz.

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April 12, 2014 at 5:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tamoria
Member
Posts: 234

Hey, thanks for the input! Oh boy I 'm really excited to try some new Gothitelle stuff! And I hadn't heard of Sticky Web, I'm definitely going to have to look into that considering a lot of the Pokemon i like tend to be really slow.


And my two cents on battling in general, I think we're all going to be faced with a sweep at some point starting out in this new gen, there's a lot of new things to get used to and to try out. Don't forget, first time I tried out the guys in my signature my clock got thoroughly cleaned. 

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April 12, 2014 at 6:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Cecil-Jacobs
Member
Posts: 739

I wouldn't really say I have a Sand Team anymore. Most of them really don't care if Sand is up or down, it is just my T-tar. So go ahead!


I thought you'd like that Casey.

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April 12, 2014 at 6:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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